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what is a game, anyway? (what entries would be allowed)

PostPosted:13 Oct 2013, 21:29
by Rola
Inspired by the thread "Different game criteria" I'd like to remind this important question.

We don't need to delve into academic discussion here ("SimCity is a toy or a game?"). Let's just agree on what's beyond the scope of this database (not eligible to be listed).

At MobyGames (see my old notes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MobyGames ... s_of_scope) we had occasional problems with:

* idle games - these mock the grinding in RPG games. Not enough interaction - you launch the game and it plays by itself!
* Flash paper doll - called "games for girls", are in fact interactive dressing up
* multimedia titles released for rare consoles were listed "because they're so rare and we can thus complete the title library for a given console"

Re: what is a game, anyway?

PostPosted:14 Oct 2013, 20:23
by MZ per X
Rola wrote:Inspired by the thread "Different game criteria" I'd like to remind this important question.
Thanks for bringing this up. Personally, I'm an inclusionist, I'd like to see Oregami be a welcoming database for all kinds of corner cases, too. If we can include stuff, why shouldn't we?
For reference:
  • cancelled (unreleased) games (this information may be entered as trivia for company/developer or relevant game series)
  • unreleased games still in development (as all information is subject to change)
  • games which appeared only in a compilation, without stand-alone release (while such compilations are listed)
  • fan-made mods/total conversions of other games (this information may be entered as trivia for relevant game) - as opposed to commercially released ones
  • platform-independent games, such as online MUDs, MUSHes etc. played over Telnet
  • coin-operated arcade game machines (using wide range of hardware)
  • pirated releases
Rola wrote:At MobyGames we had occasional problems with:
* idle games - these mock the grinding in RPG games. Not enough interaction - you launch the game and it plays by itself!
* Flash paper doll - called "games for girls", are in fact interactive dressing up
* multimedia titles released for rare consoles were listed "because they're so rare and we can thus complete the title library for a given console"
I don't see a problem in accepting all of the above into the Oregami database. Just say welcome! :D

As for things not to be accepted: Don't know, really. Applications? :)

Re: what is a game, anyway?

PostPosted:15 Oct 2013, 17:41
by Rola
Even unreleased games? How would such entry look like: description without release info assigned, right?

Re: what is a game, anyway?

PostPosted:15 Oct 2013, 20:22
by MZ per X
Rola wrote:Even unreleased games? How would such entry look like: description without release info assigned, right?
Yes, and a more prominent display of our sources for the game (press releases, ads).

Re: what is a game, anyway?

PostPosted:15 Oct 2013, 20:58
by Ultyzarus
MZ per X wrote:
Rola wrote:Even unreleased games? How would such entry look like: description without release info assigned, right?
Yes, and a more prominent display of our sources for the game (press releases, ads).
I wonder if we can get our hands on info for that sequel to Final Fantasy VI that was supposed to come out on the Nintendo Dolphin (aka N64) ;) I remember seeing some magazine pages about it back in around 96 - 98...

Re: what is a game, anyway?

PostPosted:16 Oct 2013, 17:21
by Patrick
MZ per X wrote:
Rola wrote:At MobyGames we had occasional problems with:
* idle games - these mock the grinding in RPG games. Not enough interaction - you launch the game and it plays by itself!
* Flash paper doll - called "games for girls", are in fact interactive dressing up
* multimedia titles released for rare consoles were listed "because they're so rare and we can thus complete the title library for a given console"
I don't see a problem in accepting all of the above into the Oregami database. Just say welcome! :D

As for things not to be accepted: Don't know, really. Applications? :)
All of the above are non-game applications. Flash paper dolls are an equivalent to Photoshop. Idle games are the same as a Youtube video. I don't see a good justification to include them in a game database. However, I am really going to be pissed if case 3 gets in. While there are certainly a few arguments why the first two could be interpreted as games, this is completely out of the question. Those releases are about as much games as a porn picture CD. If this is a game, everything which ever got released on a CD is a "game". No, it is not! And don't even try to invent different game definitions for consoles and computers. This would be the death of any accountability. A game is a game is a game; it must not play a role for this classification on which device it was released.

Every project needs a clearly defined goal. In this case, one needs to decide if the goal is to document "games" or "software". If the goal is the latter, this needs to be accounted for in the whole database structure. Don't randomly assign the label "game" to every product you like to see in the database for one reason or another even if it is not. If your database is centered around games and even has the word "game" in its title, then non-game software needs to stay out. Period.

Re: what is a game, anyway?

PostPosted:16 Oct 2013, 17:36
by Ultyzarus
Patrick wrote:
MZ per X wrote:
Rola wrote:At MobyGames we had occasional problems with:
* idle games - these mock the grinding in RPG games. Not enough interaction - you launch the game and it plays by itself!
* Flash paper doll - called "games for girls", are in fact interactive dressing up
* multimedia titles released for rare consoles were listed "because they're so rare and we can thus complete the title library for a given console"
I don't see a problem in accepting all of the above into the Oregami database. Just say welcome! :D

As for things not to be accepted: Don't know, really. Applications? :)
All of the above are non-game applications. Flash paper dolls are an equivalent to Photoshop. Idle games are the same as a Youtube video. I don't see a good justification to include them in a game database. However, I am really going to be pissed if case 3 gets in. While there are certainly a few arguments why the first two could be interpreted as games, this is completely out of the question. Those releases are about as much games as a porn picture CD. If this is a game, everything which ever got released on a CD is a "game". No, it is not! And don't even try to invent different game definitions for consoles and computers. This would be the death of any accountability. A game is a game is a game; it must not play a role for this classification on which device it was released.

Every project needs a clearly defined goal. In this case, one needs to decide if the goal is to document "games" or "software". If the goal is the latter, this needs to be accounted for in the whole database structure. Don't randomly assign the label "game" to every product you like to see in the database for one reason or another even if it is not. If your database is centered around games and even has the word "game" in its title, then non-game software needs to stay out. Period.
That reminds me of someone who tried to add "Mario Calculator" to MG. It is simply a Mario Themed calculator, not a game... But MG has Pokedex 3D/3D pro, and these are not games either, simply a Pokemon encyclopedia...

Re: what is a game, anyway? (what entries would be allowed)

PostPosted:16 Oct 2013, 19:24
by Patrick
As for definition, personally I believe a game is defined by only two criteria: Interactivity and reactivity. Both critera are of course dependent on each other. Interactivity means the game interacts with a program. He makes choices, e.g. firing a shot, moving the playing character or moving something on the playfield. Then the game reacts to it by applying a rule set to the player's decisions, evaluating it and changing how the game progresses in consideration of said choices. From the top of my head I can't think of a single program I would classify as game which does not meet this definition and I also can't think of a program which I would not classify as game which meets it.

Re: what is a game, anyway? (what entries would be allowed)

PostPosted:17 Oct 2013, 03:04
by Foxhack
I want fan-made mods to be allowed as games.

I refuse to put all 50 zillion Quake mods to the trivia page. :P

Re: what is a game, anyway?

PostPosted:18 Oct 2013, 22:47
by MZ per X
Patrick wrote:Flash paper dolls are an equivalent to Photoshop. Idle games are the same as a Youtube video. I don't see a good justification to include them in a game database.
Oh, you should watch my 5-year-old daughter dress up a mermaid or something. This is as serious as gaming gets. ;) And the difference between idle games and Youtube videos is that you watch a different video every time you start an idle game, don't you? :)
Patrick wrote:Every project needs a clearly defined goal. In this case, one needs to decide if the goal is to document "games" or "software". If the goal is the latter, this needs to be accounted for in the whole database structure. Don't randomly assign the label "game" to every product you like to see in the database for one reason or another even if it is not. If your database is centered around games and even has the word "game" in its title, then non-game software needs to stay out. Period.
Our goal is to document games, no doubt about that. I just see this question quite relaxed at the moment, booking it under the "no harm done" and "exception to the rule" kind of feelings. Cause quite frankly, if we ever get to the point of finally deciding on this third point from above, it's all good. Because Oregami will be fully operational and thriving by then. :)

And the answer might be a sister project to Oregami: Orenongami ! :P (BTW does anyone know of a project documenting applications?)

Re: what is a game, anyway? (what entries would be allowed)

PostPosted:18 Oct 2013, 22:49
by MZ per X
Foxhack wrote:I want fan-made mods to be allowed as games. I refuse to put all 50 zillion Quake mods to the trivia page. :P
This touches the subject of add-ons which I will cover soon, and which could be titled "Opening the flood gates?". :)

Re: what is a game, anyway?

PostPosted:22 Oct 2013, 20:51
by Tracy Poff
Patrick wrote:All of the above are non-game applications. Flash paper dolls are an equivalent to Photoshop. Idle games are the same as a Youtube video. I don't see a good justification to include them in a game database. However, I am really going to be pissed if case 3 gets in. While there are certainly a few arguments why the first two could be interpreted as games, this is completely out of the question. Those releases are about as much games as a porn picture CD. If this is a game, everything which ever got released on a CD is a "game". No, it is not! And don't even try to invent different game definitions for consoles and computers. This would be the death of any accountability. A game is a game is a game; it must not play a role for this classification on which device it was released.

Every project needs a clearly defined goal. In this case, one needs to decide if the goal is to document "games" or "software". If the goal is the latter, this needs to be accounted for in the whole database structure. Don't randomly assign the label "game" to every product you like to see in the database for one reason or another even if it is not. If your database is centered around games and even has the word "game" in its title, then non-game software needs to stay out. Period.
I hate to resurrect a dead discussion, but...

Without considering whether paper doll or idle games count as games in the usual sense, I think it is still reasonable to document them. It's early days yet, of course, but the stated goal is to include everything related to computer and video games, including the games themselves, the people involved, and even related magazines. There are good reasons to document these 'extra' things: a full understanding of games will require some knowledge of who made them so we want to document people; even if we aren't interested in reviews or game magazines for their own sake, there were plenty of games released as type-ins in magazines and books, so we'd clearly want to handle those; these game-like pieces of software are in a similar position, in my opinion, even if they aren't games themselves, strictly speaking. There is, in my opinion, a problem of diminishing returns with trying to exclude things. There's very little to gain by excluding one borderline title, or a dozen, and any gain is probably offset by the risk of excluding things that ought to be included. If there existed a clear, complete definition of what it is to be a game, it'd be worthwhile, maybe, but since we can't even have such purity even in theory, I'd rather tend toward inclusionism.

So, on that note, let me put in my voice in favor of including even non-game software for consoles. Certainly such things don't contribute toward fully documenting games, but they do contribute toward fully documenting game consoles. For example, the Wii has a Netflix channel, and it's been mentioned more than once that for many people, the Wii only gets used as a Netflix streaming device. In 2011, Netflix said that 25% of its 24 million customers streamed video using a Wii. With 6 million users, the Netflix channel certainly represents a fairly important part of the Wii's software library. If, in the future, non-game software should come to represent a significant part of the software library for 'game' consoles, it might be impractical to document it, but I'd rather revisit the question when it becomes an issue.

Re: what is a game, anyway?

PostPosted:23 Oct 2013, 04:40
by MZ per X
Tracy Poff wrote:I hate to resurrect a dead discussion, but...
You didn't, because there's no dead discussions here. :) We dig up old threads all the time, because we tend to discuss the basics first, then re-visit the issues when we find new corner cases or ideas for the subject.
Tracy Poff wrote:There's very little to gain by excluding one borderline title, or a dozen, and any gain is probably offset by the risk of excluding things that ought to be included.
That's exactly what I meant with "no harm done". We won't lose anything due to including these borderline cases.
Tracy Poff wrote:So, on that note, let me put in my voice in favor of including even non-game software for consoles. Certainly such things don't contribute toward fully documenting games, but they do contribute toward fully documenting game consoles.
That's an interesting view at the issue. Patrick's take on the topic was that we should treat all gaming hardware the same, so no exceptions for consoles just because their release libraries are limited. You suggest fully documenting a game console's library because the console was designed for gaming in the first place, in contrast to a personal computer, so everything about the console belongs into an all-embracing video gaming database. As I said, very interesting. :)

Re: what is a game, anyway?

PostPosted:23 Oct 2013, 13:03
by Ultyzarus
MZ per X wrote: That's an interesting view at the issue. Patrick's take on the topic was that we should treat all gaming hardware the same, so no exceptions for consoles just because their release libraries are limited. You suggest fully documenting a game console's library because the console was designed for gaming in the first place, in contrast to a personal computer, so everything about the console belongs into an all-embracing video gaming database. As I said, very interesting. :)
What I'd suggest in that matter is making the database not only allowing this, but have specific tools for these cases. However we might not want to give priority to them, just make it possible and design to welcome them.

I wonder about platforms such as iPad ans Android though. Are they considered as gaming platforms first? Probably just multimedia platforms is my guess ;) Because we DON'T want to document everything that exist on those.... XD

Re: what is a game, anyway?

PostPosted:23 Oct 2013, 13:50
by MZ per X
Ultyzarus wrote:I wonder about platforms such as iPad ans Android though. Are they considered as gaming platforms first? Probably just multimedia platforms is my guess ;) Because we DON'T want to document everything that exist on those.... XD
If we'll come to the conclusion that non-games for game consoles shall be included, this would only be allowed for platforms that have been designed for gaming as their main purpose. iPad, Android, and the likes would definitely fall through the cracks then.