what is a game, anyway? (what entries would be allowed)

[MZ per X]

As I said, very interesting.

Tracy Poff, I just read a piece about intercultural communication problems, and found this above phrase with the meaning "That is utter nonsense." for English natives there.

Didn't know that, and as I am German, "very interesting" means something completely different for me. It means your view on the topic is absolutely worth a second thought and should be thoroughly considered before finally deciding on the issue.

Hope you were not offended.

[Rola]

My reply to inclusionists would be: there are console-specific databases out there, there's always Wikipedia. I'm against adding those definitely-not-a-game titles to a games database.

[Tracy Poff]

Tracy Poff, I just read a piece about intercultural communication problems, and found this above phrase with the meaning "That is utter nonsense." for English natives there.

Didn't know that, and as I am German, "very interesting" means something completely different for me. It means your view on the topic is absolutely worth a second thought and should be thoroughly considered before finally deciding on the issue.

Hope you were not offended.

Oh, absolutely not. I'm well aware of the difficulties of communicating online with people around the world, so I'm afraid that if you wanted to insult me you'd have to be pretty direct or I'd continue to assume everyone was contributing to the discussion in good faith.

My reply to inclusionists would be: there are console-specific databases out there, there's always Wikipedia. I'm against adding those definitely-not-a-game titles to a games database.

Actually, that is in my opinion not a strength of the current situation, but a weakness. We have some general databases, like MobyGames or Wikipedia, that are not very complete, and we have some console-specific databases that are much more complete, but we don't have any good database that is both inclusive and complete. If I want to know about every incarnation of Fantasy Zone, for example, my best source is probably Hardcore Gaming 101, since MobyGames doesn't include arcade games and Wikipedia doesn't include (enough) screenshots. If I want to know about the Super Mario Bros. series, probably I should look at the Super Mario Wiki, since it spans platforms and includes things like the Mario Calculator and Mario Teaches Typing. No console-specific database will help me with these, and I think it's a shame to dream of creating a database that won't be any more useful than the current offerings.

I certainly can agree that we don't need to add definitively non-game software for platforms like Commodore 64 or MS-DOS, since it would be both out of scope and impractical. But I think there is value in completeness, and, where practical, I'd err on the side of including too much. The fact that Nintendo produced software like Mario Calculator or Mario Teaches Typing goes to show how important the character is to the company's image, and the existence of non-game software on game consoles is valuable information for tracking how people perceive these devices. If the current rumors are accurate, and the Xbox One will be able to run Windows 8.1 apps, it could mean a shift in how people think about consoles, and I think it will be valuable to be able to track the popularity of non-game software on consoles leading up to this, from a historical perspective.

...I think I've probably said enough on that particular topic. I may not convince you of my position, but I hope you'll agree that there is an argument for the other side.

[Rola]

I am against adding entries, but I didn't say any info is verboten. Even given the MobyGames example: Mario Calculator could be mentioned in the Mario franchise game group.

[Ultyzarus]

What we need if we want the best possible database, is teamwork with those other teams that already have amassed a lot of information about some franchise or consoles. I'm thinking about teams like those from the finalfantasywiki, mariowiki, bulbapedia, etc. If we get to the point of having that database go live, we'd want to contact them directly and ask for collaboration.

[MZ per X]

Hope you were not offended.

Oh, absolutely not. ...

Great, thanks for sharing your thoughts.

If I want to know about the Super Mario Bros. series, probably I should look at the Super Mario Wiki, since it spans platforms and includes things like the Mario Calculator and Mario Teaches Typing. No console-specific database will help me with these, and I think it's a shame to dream of creating a database that won't be any more useful than the current offerings.

That is an important point for me. Does anybody know a niche database for a game console that includes non-games?

[Rola]

teamwork with those other...

The problem is that most people reply "oh, and why should we help build your website? especially after we had spent countless hours contributing to our website?". Even Wikipedia does this - check their "conflict of interests" rules (it won't link to your website but will gladly absorb your data!).
It's like asking long-time members to move to a new forum.

The only people who may want to cooperate are the fan(boy)s of a given franchise. Say, a Star Wars fan may want to add info to any database s/he finds, because their focus is "Star Wars", not expanding a given website!

[Patrick]

All or nothing. Either document all software for all platforms or restrict yourself to a certain type of software. A program does not become more or less relevant depending on the platform. If you include non-gaming software, you need to adjust the whole database to represent it as accurately as you represent games. Nothing is helped if you shoehorn things into a database which is not made for them. Then those things just sit there without contributing anything useful. In my opinion the question of being "complete" is completely irrelevant. If you include non-gaming software or not, becoming "complete" is unrealistic for most platforms anyway.

I think the current goal of documenting games and magazines is a huge enough undertaking in itself without branching off into completely different areas. It is better to do a few things correctly than trying to do everything at once.

And the difference between idle games and Youtube videos is that you watch a different video every time you start an idle game, don't you?

I don't see how this is relevant to the question if it is a game or not. You start it and then everything happens automatically. Please explain to me the mechanical difference to a screensaver or a youtube video from a girl who explains which shoes she bought today. If call my bicycle "Ferrari", it does not suddenly become relevant to a car database.

[Tracy Poff]

That is an important point for me. Does anybody know a niche database for a game console that includes non-games?

Not exactly game consoles, however: the cartridge list from TI-99 Forever includes non-game cartridges, but it's not exactly the sort of detailed database we're interested in; Acorn Electron World claims to list "anything ever professionally released" for the Acorn Electron, and at a glance there do appear to be utilities and things in their listings; and, of course, TOSEC does catalogue applications as well as games (and various other things, too). None of these are exactly what you asked for, I fear, but I don't generally frequent console-specific databases, so I'm not too familiar with what they offer.

What we need if we want the best possible database, is teamwork with those other teams that already have amassed a lot of information about some franchise or consoles. I'm thinking about teams like those from the finalfantasywiki, mariowiki, bulbapedia, etc. If we get to the point of having that database go live, we'd want to contact them directly and ask for collaboration.

While of course it would be good to have access to the expertise of those who built such things, in practice it's not that simple to interconnect with a wiki, since data on a wiki is unstructured. Certainly we could link to such places, where appropriate, but we're not likely to be able to use them directly except as a reference. On the other hand, if we want to include information about soundtracks, we'd do very well to integrate with MusicBrainz for that--they provide a nice API and the data is freely licensed, so there's no need to re-invent the wheel. There may be other similarly useful resources, though I can't think of any at the moment. I don't know of any game database that has an API and provides data under a free license, other than Oregami-that-is-to-come. Are there any?

[Ultyzarus]

I am, in principle, all for inclusion of non-game software for gaming platforms and borderline-games, but this would allow for the submission of a lot of data that we might not have the time to process properly, unless we make it a completely separate queue. Now, even if we limited the non-games to platforms designed for games, that could bring an issue with those software that exist on gaming platforms, but also on other platforms (PC, Browser, SmartPhones & Tablets, etc.).

That opens the door to way too much unwanted data that we would allow only for the sake of completion, that we may already struggle to achieve with normal games...

[MZ per X]

None of these are exactly what you asked for, I fear, but I don't generally frequent console-specific databases, so I'm not too familiar with what they offer.

Found one: Superfamicon.org

That opens the door to way too much unwanted data that we would allow only for the sake of completion, that we may already struggle to achieve with normal games...

Yes, we would need to strictly limit these entries, like this:
1) Only platforms designed for gaming (i.e. gaming consoles). (so no iOs, Android, C64, Amiga, PC ...)
2) Only releases for gaming consoles, as in no ports to other platforms like PC / C64 / Amiga / etc..

Furthermore, I'd only agree to include these, if we wouldn't have to adjust our data model and contribution processes for them. A new game type perhaps, okay, and some new genres, but that should be about it.

[jotaroraido]

Yes, we would need to strictly limit these entries, like this:
1) Only platforms designed for gaming (i.e. gaming consoles). (so no iOs, Android, C64, Amiga, PC ...)
2) Only releases for gaming consoles, as in no ports to other platforms like PC / C64 / Amiga / etc..

Furthermore, I'd only agree to include these, if we wouldn't have to adjust our data model and contribution processes for them. A new game type perhaps, okay, and some new genres, but that should be about it.

Would we limit it solely to non-game software that has entertainment elements, or any software released for approved platforms? There's stuff like Videomation and Color a Dinosaur on the NES that are clearly more entertainment than utility, but certainly not games in any sense of the word. On the other hand, the Mega Drive had home banking and baseball stat-tracking cartridges, which could only be described as entertainment if you're Indra's bizarro-world evil twin.

"Non-game" as a genre would imply that it's still some sort of entertainment software, while "utility" would imply the opposite -- entirely utilitatian, no entertainment aspect whatsoever.

[MZ per X]

Would we limit it solely to non-game software that has entertainment elements, or any software released for approved platforms?

If we follow the logic of fully documenting the software catalogue for gaming consoles, we'd need to include any software.

[idrougge]

On one hand, I do see a point for a games database in documenting non-games released for a games system, because the history of a games system is also part of the history of games. On the other hand, it opens a Pandora's box where more and more non-games software can slither into the database because of earlier precedent set by other non-games. That said, perhaps it is best to accept that non-game software released for pure gaming systems may be entered, but only non-games made for pure gaming systems (meaning consoles, but excluding multimedia systems such as Ipad and CDi), and that they are clearly identified as non-games, which perhaps should be a flag at the "game" level, or at the same level as the "compilation" or "add-on" flags. Perhaps it would suffice that the existence of these non-games is documented, so that screenshots and so on are not necessary.

The above case aside, I would prefer not to see PC dress-up games and screensavers included, because they open the door to so much more, including spreadsheets, word processors and paint programs.

[idrougge]

Another question is not so much of what is a game, as what is a video game. I would like to document even LSI games (such as Game & Watch) because they are computer controlled, even though they use an unorthodox screen. On the other hand, early text adventures were often not played on a screen at all, but on a teletype machine with roll feed paper, so the screen should not disqualify the Game & Watch.

But if what matters is that the game is computer controlled, doesn't that mean that the first games console, the Magnavox Odyssey, is disqualified because it is purely made up of analogue circuitry?

Obviously it should be included, even though it is a video game which is not a computer game in any sense of the word.

But then what about computer controlled, electro-mechanical games? Or solid state pinball tables? Or even relay-logic projection screen arcade games?