Open discussion / feedback

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Re: Open discussion / feedback

Postby gene » 27 Sep 2013, 18:51

Rola wrote:
MZ per X wrote:If this influx of MG people continues...

Oh?

Great first post! 8)

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Re: Open discussion / feedback

Postby Rola » 27 Sep 2013, 23:20

Oh, I'm usually more verbose. I'm just burned out.

Back in 2010 I suggested to MobyGames:
Rola wrote:a rehash of the database regarding game groups, compilations and special editions. Game groups would be only used for shared themes (like "games with zombies"), other uses like game series would be done by linking titles and flagging them (separate flags for special edition etc.). One thing that could be done first is color coding - make the compilations stand out. Or add a checkbox allowing to hide them (like stuff in search results). "Ideal" solution would look something like this: (with the ability to filter the search results, say, to "series" level, thus skipping all unofficial and compilation stuff)
Image

I'm not that ignorant to designing database structure either.
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Re: Open discussion / feedback

Postby Piltdown_Man » 30 Sep 2013, 21:30

Hi. I too come from MG and it's comforting to find so many familiar names here.

Still getting up to speed so apologies if this has already been raised but two things I found a problem at MG were
- Game groups, I never did find a definitive list
- Compilations, I have a 'thing' about recording shareware games. There can be hundreds on a single CD and it's not practical to put a link into the compilation for every game.

What I liked about MG was
- The community & forums. Even though everyone seemed to have a much more interesting life than me there was always someone there to help
- The points system. I am a bit of an achievement junkie
- The approver system. It's good to be held accountable and to have to maintain a standard
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Re: Open discussion / feedback

Postby MZ per X » 30 Sep 2013, 22:07

Rola wrote:Back in 2010 I suggested to MobyGames:... I'm not that ignorant to designing database structure either.
I remember thinking about your proposal back then. Looking back, it helped shape Oregami's data model a little bit. So, a belated thanks to you. :D

Piltdown_Man wrote:Hi. I too come from MG and it's comforting to find so many familiar names here.
Welcome and make yourself at home. Great to see so many good people joining here. :D

Piltdown_Man wrote:- Game groups, I never did find a definitive list
We will probably rather go for a tagging system like UVL does to the extreme. It's more flexible, I think.

Piltdown_Man wrote:- Compilations, I have a 'thing' about recording shareware games. There can be hundreds on a single CD and it's not practical to put a link into the compilation for every game.
That's one of my hobby horses, too. I secretly buy every "500 Games for Windows" - CD I can get my hands on. 8) But give me another few days, I'm about to start writing a blog entry about the Oregami data model.

Piltdown_Man wrote:- The community & forums. Even though everyone seemed to have a much more interesting life than me there was always someone there to help
Although this is a project of German origin, we try hard to make up a friendly community. :D

Piltdown_Man wrote:- The points system. I am a bit of an achievement junkie
We already discussed this in quite some depth, and will have a similar system like Mobygames, I think.

Piltdown_Man wrote:- The approver system. It's good to be held accountable and to have to maintain a standard
We aim for a rather scientific approach to game documentation, which mainly means peer review and public sourcing.
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Re: Open discussion / feedback

Postby Rola » 01 Oct 2013, 22:08

MZ per X wrote:I remember thinking about your proposal back then. Looking back, it helped shape Oregami's data model a little bit.

There was always a problem with MobyGames compilations... they were designed to hold those games "not worth a separate entry", only in their description. Then there are other cases of compilations of existing titles (with own entries)... Those can be linked manually to separate titles, however this is only a one-way link.
What I wanted to propose to MobyGames (when I still hoped for a positive redesign) was reusing the code from game groups to revolutionize compilations. This way the database shows you (on game entry) in which compilations it can be found.
These two-way links would solve another major omission in MobyGames system. Namely games-ported-only-in-compilation, which on their own separate entry never admit to being released on that platform (because of "no standalone relase" rule). There should be some indicator (color coding?) meaning "released for this platform, although only on compilation).


UVL tags are its only interesting feature (otherwise I see plenty of problems, like shouldn't there be links to other platform ports here?). Useful for noting minor features, things can easily get cluttered if there is no gradation in displaying them (this problem started to creep into MobyGames too). I don't like their often laconic descriptions. Make sure you don't use the "tag cloud display", it's a messy web2.0 fad! At least some Ordnung muss sein... There should be moderation in creating tags (not for every user), to avoid doubles (how about alternatename field which is also used in autocomplete suggestions).


Although considered "not serious" by self-made-researchers, "gamification" of contribution process (points and achievements - just check those Wikia sites) guarantees more content from the casual crowd. Badges could also be practical: for identifying the user's field of expertise (Piltdown_Man and me would get "Armchair Aviator", while Unicorn Lynx - "Tentacl... nevermind! ;) )


I can't find "website" on your database diagram. What I wanted to propose to MobyGames was adding "official" flag, because official website should be displayed on the game's main page (near title/developer), while all fanpages are dumped to "links" section.


What I wanted to propose to MobyGames was a separate summary (next to release info data?) of "what languages is this game available in?" (not always clearly evident from release data!). Skip the packaging/manual, what we care about is in-game text and voices (counted separately).
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Re: Open discussion / feedback

Postby Cantillon » 03 Oct 2013, 01:17

I am also abandoning MobyGames and looking forward to participate in this open database. I'm not only interested in brainstorming about the features but since I'm an agile software developer, also in writing code for this project. My current company uses Smalltalk, but I was a Java programmer at my previous job. Are you still looking for people?
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Re: Open discussion / feedback

Postby gene » 03 Oct 2013, 09:51

Cantillon wrote:I'm not only interested in brainstorming about the features but since I'm an agile software developer, also in writing code for this project. My current company uses Smalltalk, but I was a Java programmer at my previous job. Are you still looking for people?

Welcomt to Oregami!

We are indeed looking for developers. Up to today we have many gaming experts, but only very few developers...
So please do join us (better: me) as a Java developer! :D

Have a look at our system architecture, and we can talk more about how to get involved in the new developer board during the next days or so.
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Re: Open discussion / feedback

Postby MZ per X » 03 Oct 2013, 15:41

Rola wrote:There was always a problem with MobyGames compilations...
We discussed the compilation issues to quite some depth, and I think we're on a very good way there.

Rola wrote:These two-way links would solve another major omission in MobyGames system. Namely games-ported-only-in-compilation, which on their own separate entry never admit to being released on that platform (because of "no standalone relase" rule). There should be some indicator (color coding?) meaning "released for this platform, although only on compilation).
In Oregami's data model, it doesn't matter whether a game was released or not, or how it was released. Every game gets its own database entry. Please stay tuned for English discussion of this subject.

Rola wrote:UVL tags are its only interesting feature (otherwise I see plenty of problems, like shouldn't there be links to other platform ports here?).
Yeah, once you've seen the light of a good data model, compare the Doom entry at OGDB, you don't want something worse any more.

Rola wrote:At least some Ordnung muss sein... There should be moderation in creating tags (not for every user), to avoid doubles (how about alternatename field which is also used in autocomplete suggestions).
Indeed. What IMHO is needed at least, is tag groups, like Mobygames tried with prefixing their game groups. The moderation of this would be Indra's job then. :)

Rola wrote:Although considered "not serious" by self-made-researchers, "gamification" of contribution process (points and achievements - just check those Wikia sites) guarantees more content from the casual crowd. Badges could also be practical: for identifying the user's field of expertise (Piltdown_Man and me would get "Armchair Aviator", while Unicorn Lynx - "Tentacl... nevermind! ;) )
LOL, yeah. Maybe users can highlight their preferred genre or platform, or can give theirselves a funny nick on the site, besides their login nick.

Rola wrote:I can't find "website" on your database diagram. What I wanted to propose to MobyGames was adding "official" flag, because official website should be displayed on the game's main page (near title/developer), while all fanpages are dumped to "links" section.
Not implemented, yet, but definitely on our radar.

Rola wrote:What I wanted to propose to MobyGames was a separate summary (next to release info data?) of "what languages is this game available in?" (not always clearly evident from release data!). Skip the packaging/manual, what we care about is in-game text and voices (counted separately).
This is something I'm looking forward to, too, because I deem it very important. Although I didn't implement the release languages in the data model, yet, I already thought about it, and it will be quite easily implemented, I suppose.
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Re: Open discussion / feedback

Postby MZ per X » 03 Oct 2013, 15:44

Cantillon wrote:I am also abandoning MobyGames and looking forward to participate in this open database.
Hi Lieven, glad to welcome you, too. :D
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Re: Open discussion / feedback

Postby Rola » 03 Oct 2013, 19:13

Another thing I couldn't find on your database graph was game's "business model".

As I already said on the forum, MobyGames wrongly assigns it to technical specifications of given platform, while it should be tied to given release. I gave the example of Teenagent, originally released as commercial (Poland), soon after as shareware (USA) and now freeware (worldwide) - all PC (MS-DOS).
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Re: Open discussion / feedback

Postby MZ per X » 03 Oct 2013, 21:34

Rola wrote:Another thing I couldn't find on your database graph was game's "business model". As I already said on the forum, MobyGames wrongly assigns it to technical specifications of given platform, while it should be tied to given release. I gave the example of Teenagent, originally released as commercial (Poland), soon after as shareware (USA) and now freeware (worldwide) - all PC (MS-DOS).
Just implemented it. :) Here's the list, please comment if I forgot something.
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Re: Open discussion / feedback

Postby gene » 03 Oct 2013, 21:46

Rola wrote:I gave the example of Teenagent, originally released as commercial (Poland), soon after as shareware (USA) and now freeware (worldwide) - all PC (MS-DOS).

Would this make three different releases or one release with three "states" ?
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Re: Open discussion / feedback

Postby MZ per X » 03 Oct 2013, 22:46

gene wrote:
Rola wrote:I gave the example of Teenagent, originally released as commercial (Poland), soon after as shareware (USA) and now freeware (worldwide) - all PC (MS-DOS).

Would this make three different releases or one release with three "states" ?

That would be three releases, at least.
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Re: Open discussion / feedback

Postby Rola » 04 Oct 2013, 00:02

MZ per X wrote:That would be three releases

Genau. Assuming my example above (actual Teenagent had more releases).

What leads us to another exception: what about all those GOG releases? They are Windows (because you otherwise won't launch the file), but once installed (wrapped in DOSBOX) the game files could be copied to old computer running DOS...
I know, this is a minor problem, it probably shouldn't bother you regarding the database structure. But we used to discuss this on MobyGames forum...
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Re: Open discussion / feedback

Postby MZ per X » 06 Oct 2013, 19:33

Rola wrote:What leads us to another exception: what about all those GOG releases? They are Windows (because you otherwise won't launch the file), but once installed (wrapped in DOSBOX) the game files could be copied to old computer running DOS...
That would be an emulator release which would be connected to two release groups, one for Windows and one for DOS. That way, we can show people looking at the Windows release which version they get to play, and people looking at the DOS release that they can buy and play this old version on their modern system.
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