Open discussion / feedback

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Open discussion / feedback

Postby MZ per X » 23 Nov 2012, 15:29

This thread is for everyone newly registered at our board to drive by and throw some feedback at us.

We'd like to know more about you and about your opinion regarding OREGAMI.

  • How did you stumble about us?
  • What do you think about our ideas about video game documentation in general?
  • What is it that you like about our project?
  • What things would you tackle differently than us?
  • Which online video game databases did you have contact with so far, which experiences would you like to share?
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Re: Open discussion / feedback

Postby Ultyzarus » 18 Sep 2013, 16:11

Hi, I'm Fred VT from MobyGames. I have read the ideas for this project and it seems promising. I have already contributed a lot to MG, but due to recent events, I'm searching for a new database to add the information I can get from research and my own collection of games (over 600) for which I have complete scans and a few screenshots when possible.

I'm wondering how does Oregami plan on dealing with cover art scans. Will it be like MG, or have only front and back like gamefaqs? Or, will it be even more exhaustive and include manual pdf and other included goodies?

I've noticed that the rest of the forum is only in German. Ich spreche Deutsch aber nur ein bisschen, so I can't participate in those threads. How will that be in the future?
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Re: Open discussion / feedback

Postby MZ per X » 18 Sep 2013, 21:21

Ultyzarus wrote:Hi, I'm Fred VT from MobyGames.
Hi Frédérick, glad to have you here! :)

Ultyzarus wrote:... I'm searching for a new database to add the information I can get from research and my own collection of games (over 600) for which I have complete scans and a few screenshots when possible.
We recently switched to a new technology base, so it's gonna take a while before a prototype, much less a version 1.0 of our database will go online. Development can be watched here.

Ultyzarus wrote:I'm wondering how does Oregami plan on dealing with cover art scans. Will it be like MG, or have only front and back like gamefaqs? Or, will it be even more exhaustive and include manual pdf and other included goodies?
It will definitely be more exhaustive. We wanna document everything legally possible. Here is our current list of cover art types, expansion welcome. :)

Ultyzarus wrote:I've noticed that the rest of the forum is only in German. Ich spreche Deutsch aber nur ein bisschen, so I can't participate in those threads. How will that be in the future?
We aim for multi-linguality for the database to begin with. As a start, we offer our website and blog posts in English, and run our Wiki, source code, and issue tracker in English, too. We didn't want to add an artificial language barrier to the deep discussions in this forums, though, as we are all Germans up to now. But at some point in the future, the discussions will switch to English, too, I suppose.

But please, feel free to ask and discuss anything you want in English here. :)
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Re: Open discussion / feedback

Postby Ultyzarus » 18 Sep 2013, 22:01

I took a look at the wiki and noticed a lot of inspiration from MG or its community. This looks like it would be like a child to MG, but nurtured with the passion of its people. Very interesting.

I am wondering though, how the covers including the spine (do not forget the inner covers and Japanese spine cards, too ;) ) would be shown. I though that it would be neat (maybe difficult, especially without too much loading time) to have a 3D model of the box/case and its content...

Of course, I am just spitting out ideas here since I don't know everything that has been thought of or not. But will a specific cover set be linked with its release info and products codes? Some game releases are also compatible for different systems (Mac/Windows for instance); will each release be split for the different systems (like in MG) or a single data for both platforms?

There is also the issues of splitting games, add-ons and compilations. From what I've read it seems pretty well thought of, but I'm not quite sure of how remakes would be managed (ex. Final Fantasy Tactics for PSX vs FFT the War of the Lions for PSP/iOS which is the same game with some new content).
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Re: Open discussion / feedback

Postby MZ per X » 18 Sep 2013, 23:26

Ultyzarus wrote:I took a look at the wiki and noticed a lot of inspiration from MG or its community. This looks like it would be like a child to MG, but nurtured with the passion of its people. Very interesting.
Yes, MobyGames is a big inspiration for us, and not without reason. :) But of course not the only inspiration.

Ultyzarus wrote:I am wondering though, how the covers including the spine (do not forget the inner covers and Japanese spine cards, too ;) ) would be shown. I though that it would be neat (maybe difficult, especially without too much loading time) to have a 3D model of the box/case and its content...
The basic view would be flat like on MobyGames or OGDB, I suppose. That saves overhead and is clearly laid out. When it comes to a 3D model, you're taking the crazy ideas out of my mind. :D I just didn't tell our pogrammer up until now. ;)

Ultyzarus wrote:But will a specific cover set be linked with its release info and products codes?
Yes, it will be. Or let's just say, it will be possible. We didn't discuss this issue to the end, this linking would require the cover art contributor to enter the mandatory data for a release beforehand, which could turn off some people. We could think about an option to contribute cover art without linking it to a release (as on Moby), and make subsequent linking possible. This decision will depend on the amount of mandatory data for a release, I think.

Ultyzarus wrote:Some game releases are also compatible for different systems (Mac/Windows for instance); will each release be split for the different systems (like in MG) or a single data for both platforms?
Between the database objects game and release, we added another data layer called release group, think of this as Moby's platforms. The data for a release are entered once, then linked to two release groups, one for each platform.

Ultyzarus wrote:There is also the issues of splitting games, add-ons and compilations. From what I've read it seems pretty well thought of, but I'm not quite sure of how remakes would be managed (ex. Final Fantasy Tactics for PSX vs FFT the War of the Lions for PSP/iOS which is the same game with some new content).
Our database object release group goes much further than Moby's platforms, as in that a game can have multiple release groups per platform. That means that a game could have the following release data:

- release group
--release

- Original release (Windows)
--German original release
--German budget release
--US original release
--US GOTY-Edition
--Steam release

-Demo release (Windows)
--PC Player 08/2011 covermount
--PC Gamer 09/2011 covermount

-Flash teaser release (Browser)
--Kongregate.com release

-Enhanced remake release (Windows)
--German original remake release
--US original remake release

And every release can be linked into more than one release group, so a release could even contain original game and remake together, no problem. :)

Everything understood? ;) Complex stuff, but I will happily answer further questions. It's very interesting discussing this in English for the first time.
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Re: Open discussion / feedback

Postby Ultyzarus » 19 Sep 2013, 01:13

I'm very visual, so everything will make much more sense when I see a mock-up or something XD
For what I can understand (I'm hoping most of it) it seems to be pretty much what I'd have in mind myself if I were a web designer. Of course the rest will all depend on the resources and the standards for submission.

Another thing I'm always curious about is how the games descriptions will be, how long, how exhaustive, etc.

Too bad it isn't online yet :P But I guess in the meantime my collection will just grow bigger. As you may have noticed on MG, the biggest part of my collection is my Final Fantasy game, for which I collect every possible release of each FF game (not including Chocobo spinoffs and other games renamed FF (for the game boy)). When the database is ready, I'll happily add everything from that (including the 20th Anniversary Box containing the 13 first game, Beta releases for FFXI, etc.) ;)

Also, if you ever need some artwork (or anything else), I could be of help: http://ultyzarus.deviantart.com/gallery/
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Re: Open discussion / feedback

Postby judgedeadd » 22 Sep 2013, 10:03

Hey all!

This project seems very promising. There are a couple of things I'm wondering about:

1. Will contributors need to provide evidence for all their submissions, like in MobyGames? If so, will there be any way to make these sources public, similarly to Wikipedia? You might have the most accurate data ever, but it don't mean squat if the average reader has no proof that it's accurate. (Especially when e.g. one website mistakenly lists a game's release date as 1984, twenty other websites copy it mindlessly, while the Oregami contributor does painstaking research of his own and fins out the actual year is 1985--so now we have twenty-one websites saying 1984 and one website saying 1985. If all of the websites list their data without explaining their sources, what's a reader to do but to trust the majority?)
2. How much information will be absolutely necessary to contribute a game entry? MobyGames demands a certain minimum (release year, description, companies, genre), under the assumption that giving more leeway to contributors would result in a slew of lazy, skeleton entries with no substantial content.
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Re: Open discussion / feedback

Postby MZ per X » 22 Sep 2013, 19:41

Ultyzarus wrote:I'm very visual, so everything will make much more sense when I see a mock-up or something XD
gene did some mockups, but they're very early and a little bit outdated by now. But take a look, if you will. We're not this visual, y'know. :)

Ultyzarus wrote:Another thing I'm always curious about is how the games descriptions will be, how long, how exhaustive, etc.
Currently, we think about a mandatory tag-line for every game (like "Humorous pirate adventure" for Monkey island or similar), an optional normal description as in MobyGames, and an optional long description for the people who love to write. As we deem the normal description very important, but don't wanna turn off people by making it mandatory, we think about rewarding it very generously (i.e. many points).

Ultyzarus wrote:When the database is ready, I'll happily add everything from that (including the 20th Anniversary Box containing the 13 first game, Beta releases for FFXI, etc.) ;) Also, if you ever need some artwork (or anything else), I could be of help: http://ultyzarus.deviantart.com/gallery/
Cool, thanks!We're working hard to have you able to contribute, and are looking forward to having some of your art on our pages, if need arises.
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Re: Open discussion / feedback

Postby MZ per X » 22 Sep 2013, 20:00

judgedeadd wrote:Hey all!
Hey Judge, glad to see you here, too. :)

judgedeadd wrote:1. Will contributors need to provide evidence for all their submissions, like in MobyGames? If so, will there be any way to make these sources public, similarly to Wikipedia?
We aim for a more or less scientific approach for Oregami which means indication of source and verifiability. So, the basic answers to your questions are yes and yes. On a side note, I personally think that we won't accept links as source, because they tend to die, but screenshots of the respective sites.

judgedeadd wrote:2. How much information will be absolutely necessary to contribute a game entry? MobyGames demands a certain minimum (release year, description, companies, genre), under the assumption that giving more leeway to contributors would result in a slew of lazy, skeleton entries with no substantial content.
That cannot really be answered, yet, because our data model isn't finished, yet. Furthermore, we have three data layers (as said above it's game, release group, and release) which can be contributed separately from each other, and all might have separate mandatory data.

I think we will need to discuss in detail again, when all the data is in the model, and when we know for sure whether our desired data import from TheLegacy will happen or not. If we're able to start with all the data from there, we might also be able to raise the level of mandatory data from day one of Oregami.

But as I said, this needs to be discussed again.
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Re: Open discussion / feedback

Postby Ultyzarus » 22 Sep 2013, 22:33

If it were me, I'd make it more or less from scratch, guaranteeing the most accurate information, having the release year and publisher (since they are easily proven from covers and screenshots) as mandatory info. I'd rather have a full description mandatory (even though I often hate having to write said description, myself being an average writer at most), to avoid having empty entries like we so often find on gamefaqs, and even sometimes wikipedia.

There should also be a feature for when the info is incomplete (or even if there isn't a reliable source), or when cover arts are placeholders (for rare releases), so it gets easy to know that these are missing. This should be similar to MG's Most Wanted page, but the info itself should have some king of tag showing that its incomplete, so we can know just by browsing through game entries.

Also, is there any plan on having a reward/point system for contributions?
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Re: Open discussion / feedback

Postby Patrick » 23 Sep 2013, 09:19

MZ per X wrote:I think we will need to discuss in detail again, when all the data is in the model, and when we know for sure whether our desired data import from TheLegacy will happen or not. If we're able to start with all the data from there, we might also be able to raise the level of mandatory data from day one of Oregami.


However, if Oregami will include the MobyGames rules for covers and screenshots (no stealing, accurate), you should be careful about importing Screenshots from TheLegacy. Many, many screenshots are just bad scans from games magazines.
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Re: Open discussion / feedback

Postby Trypticon » 23 Sep 2013, 17:52

Ultyzarus wrote:If it were me, I'd make it more or less from scratch, guaranteeing the most accurate information, having the release year and publisher (since they are easily proven from covers and screenshots) as mandatory info.


What you see on on covers and screenshots is usually a year referencing copyright, not the release. The two will often be the same, but there are exceptions especially when old ports and releases in different regions are involved.

Neither is determination of the publisher a clear-cut case. The difference between publisher and distributor was unresolved at moby, and it's one of the issues that eventually needs to be addressed here as well, same with certain other things pertaining to companies. We had a discussion about this already, which indicated people have different views about this.
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Re: Open discussion / feedback

Postby Ultyzarus » 23 Sep 2013, 18:31

Trypticon wrote:What you see on on covers and screenshots is usually a year referencing copyright, not the release. The two will often be the same, but there are exceptions especially when old ports and releases in different regions are involved.

Neither is determination of the publisher a clear-cut case. The difference between publisher and distributor was unresolved at moby, and it's one of the issues that eventually needs to be addressed here as well, same with certain other things pertaining to companies. We had a discussion about this already, which indicated people have different views about this.


Indeed, but it is still a better base info than copy/pasting from a wiki or gamefaqs. There could even be a temporary option for copyright year. As for the publisher and distributor, the best way is to have the credits, but it is otherwise a hassle to get the exact info, especially we we are precise enough to want the specific studio of a larger company...
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Re: Open discussion / feedback

Postby MZ per X » 23 Sep 2013, 21:31

Ultyzarus wrote:If it were me, I'd make it more or less from scratch, guaranteeing the most accurate information,...

Patrick wrote:...you should be careful about importing Screenshots from TheLegacy. Many, many screenshots are just bad scans from games magazines.

There's difficulties involved with a data import, no doubt. But I think that the advantages outweigh the disadvantages, especially because TheLegacy is also a project with peer review, so we should do the import if we can. But we should also mark every imported piece of data with a source "TheLegacy", and one of the big projects of the Oregami community will then be replacing this source with proper reference. Having said that, I don't know how deep the peer review and sourcing at TheLegacy was, maybe we even could import sourcing from there.

Ultyzarus wrote:Also, is there any plan on having a reward/point system for contributions?
Yes, there is. We discussed this already a bit, and consensus seems to be a points system similar to MobyGames' , i.e. quite easy, and without additional bells and whistles, but more fine-grained for the different kinds of contributions. If you want to create a draft of your preferred points system in the wiki, please do. :D
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Re: Open discussion / feedback

Postby Ultyzarus » 23 Sep 2013, 22:02

Discussing this kinda makes me feel like the people who decided to leave the old continent to become settlers in the new world. XD Except in this case, our old continent is pretty much dead...
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